Mimi Feingold:
Could you give me your name, address, and age?
James Bell:
My name is James Bell. I'm 19 years of age. Clinton, Louisiana.
Feingold:
Are you a student now?
Bell:
Yes, Southern University.
Feingold:
Could you tell your name, and address, and age?
Laura M. Spears:
Laura M. Spears, age 25, Clinton, Louisiana.
Feingold:
Okay. Now, let's just the three of us try to recollect what happened in the fall of 1963 when the movement had just started in Clinton. I think one of the first things that happened that fall was that there was a letter written to the town officials in Clinton, and I wondered if you could tell about how that letter got written and who signed it?
Spears:
Well, first, a group of us, a committee of 12 people, got together and sat down and talked about the different things we wanted to ask the town, the mayor, the district attorney, and the Sheriff's Office. So 12 of us signed the letter, and it was sent in on September 19th, 1963, asking for a biracial committee. And a couple days later, we received a letter from the district attorney. And several days later, we received a subpoena to go to court. But when we sent the letter, we weren't thinking anything about getting arrested because we were only asking for a biracial committee, not demanding one.
Feingold:
Yeah. Do you remember what the district attorney's answer was? As I remember, it was something about how biracial committees were part of the communist plot to undermine the United States, and he wasn't going to have anything to do with it. Well, when you were subpoenaed into court, what happened?
Spears:
Well, the first time we went to court, our lawyers didn't show up that day, because they weren't really supposed to be there, because we contacted the lawyers the same day and they said there wasn't any reason for them to come up there. But anyway, that day, we didn't have any council at all, but all of us was put on the stand and asked our name and address, and were we a member of CORE. And we didn't answer anything. We gave our name and address, but we didn't answer any other questions because we didn't have counsel. And they thought that was real silly because we said we didn't have counsel that day.
Feingold:
Yeah, well, this was the 12 of you who signed the letter?
Spears:
It was the 12 letter signers.
Feingold:
And were you subpoenaed back to court after that?
Spears:
Yes, several times.
Feingold:
Was that the time you were subpoenaed practically every week?
Spears:
Every week. Yes, every week.
Feingold:
You had to go to court?
Spears:
Just to hear our name called, and he dismissed court then.
Feingold:
Yeah. Well, what finally happened in around December?
Spears:
Well, on December 3rd, I was arrested, and 11 others were arrested.
Feingold:
What were you arrested for?
Spears:
Well, I was just getting off from work and the deputy sheriff came on my job and told me that I was under arrest. And I said, "Under arrest for what?" He said, "You know you all wrote that letter to the mayor and the district attorney and the sheriff threatening them." And I said, "What's the charge?" He said, "Public intimidation and criminal conspiracy." So they took us down. When I got to the jail, everybody was there except Mr. Herbert Bell and Mrs. Greenup and Reverend [inaudible 00:03:34]. And they fingerprinted me and everything, gave me the works, and then they locked us up.
Feingold:
What was your bond?
Spears:
$4,000.
Feingold:
Yeah. How long did you stay in jail?
Spears:
I stayed in there about five, six hours. Some of the others stayed longer because they arrested them earlier because they were in town.
Feingold:
Yeah. Did they treat you okay?
Spears:
Just fine. They gave us supper while we were there.
Feingold:
Yeah, I can't imagine what that was like.
Spears:
Yeah.
Feingold:
Yeah, well, what happened after that? Did you all come to trial?
Spears:
No. After December the 3rd, we didn't hear anymore about it.
Feingold:
Yeah. Yeah. I remember that Alice Thompson and I were subpoenaed shortly before that, either the end of November or early December, subpoenaed by the Grand Jury. And they called us up there, and they wanted to know did we know anything about the letter, and who had written the letter, and did we make people sign it, and did we go to people asking them to sign it? And fortunately, I could answer very truthfully that I knew nothing about it because I wasn't in Clinton when that letter was written. I was in Plaquemine, and I told them that.And then they wanted to know where I was staying when I was up here that summer. Well, I had been staying up by Mrs. Greenup's, but I suddenly realized that they didn't know that. They had never realized that. So I wasn't going to tell them where I had stayed, so I refused to tell them that.
And they kept saying to me, "Well, you could go to jail for five days for contempt of the Grand Jury," or something like that, "if you don't tell." And I said, "Well, I've been to jail longer than that before." Five days in jail wasn't going to hurt me. And they never got it out of me where I was staying. And they asked Alice about the letter, and she didn't know anything about it either because she hadn't been in Clinton. And that was end of November, and then just several days later, they arrested everybody. And they arrested Ed Vickery at the same time, right?
Spears:
Yes. If I'm not mistaken, they arrested Vick a day before us or a day after, one. And they took him to Baton Rouge jail.
Feingold:
Yeah. And nothing more has come of that?
Spears:
No, we haven't heard anything else about it at all.
Feingold:
Yeah. And just for the record, there still isn't a biracial committee, is there?
Spears:
No, it's not.
Feingold:
Yeah. Yeah, well, at the same time that fall, there was quite a bit of activity uptown in Clinton with picketing the stores. And James, could you recollect a little bit about how that picketing got started and what happened?
Bell:
Yeah. In the summer of '63, a voter registration campaign was put on. After voter registration, work seemed to bog down. We felt that something else was needed to spearhead the people into realizing the true problem and the true necessity of registering to vote. So we felt that a boycott of Clinton would be just the thing. So we organized, and we came up with picketing. So the town felt that this was illegal. And after some pickets hit the street, they began arresting most of the people that were picketing. Mostly high school students that first day were picketing on October 13th.
Feingold:
Yeah. Can you remember how many kids were picketing that day?
Bell:
No, I don't remember the number. It something like, yeah, about 23. And they were arrested on trumped-up charges, such as contributing to the delinquency of juveniles. Myself, I was taking pictures. And so they arrested me and charged me with criminal conspiracy and some of the other charges, and they confiscated my camera and all the films.
Feingold:
Yeah. Did you ever get it back?
Bell:
I got it back about 8 to 10 months later. Just the camera, no film.
Feingold:
Yeah. When they arrested you all, they put you all up in the Clinton jail?
Bell:
Right. They put us in the Clinton jail. And in that number, we had some juveniles. And they transferred the juveniles to West Baton Rouge Parish jails.
Feingold:
And weren't there some more people arrested the next day for trying to bring water up to you or something?
Bell:
Yeah, there was a great freedom fighter. He was an older guy. And we told him that we needed some water, so he brought some water up there. And the deputy who was over the jail was standing on the outside and he said, "Well, I have some water for the inmates in jail." So he said, "Just sit the water down there and I'll carry it up to them." He said, "No." He said, "We want to carry it up there while it has ice in it." And so they began to argue. And the fellow wouldn't change his mind. He insisted on the water going up there, so he told him, say, "If the water goes up there, you're going up there with it." So he ended up in jail.
Feingold:
And was there anyone else arrested like that? Wasn't there someone arrested for standing outside the jail and yelling in?
Spears:
See, James and those were arrested on a Saturday. And so they thought probably, "Arrest all those. No one else would be able to picket on Sunday." So we had some adults to picket on Sunday.
Feingold:
That's right. That's right. Yeah.
Spears:
And then two older adults got arrested just for standing. We sent people to observe while the others were picketing. And I would say we had about 8 or 10 men to go up, and 2 ladies. And they were also arrested that day, about 14 more on Sunday.
Feingold:
Yeah. And how long did you spend in jail?
Bell:
The juveniles spent about 7 out of 10 days in jail, and we spent 24. There were three of us who were transferred from East Feliciana Parish Jail to New Roads. They felt that if they had transferred us that they could have conned the rest of the inmates into going along with some of the things that they were trying to get us to do. And see, we had organized in jail. And just about everything that we were pushing for, we were getting it.
Feingold:
What kinds of things were you pushing for?
Bell:
When we went in there, most of the linen on the cots was dirty, a better word, filthy. And some had bed bugs, and the floors were filthy, the shower didn't work, no toilet tissue. A couple of the cots didn't have any mattresses and things like that. And so we petitioned for those.
Feingold:
And you got them all?
Bell:
Got them all. Yeah.
Feingold:
Did the spirit go down after you left, after you were taken out?
Bell:
No, not at all. No, not at all.
Feingold:
Yeah. Well, did the picketing continue when you all got out of jail?
Bell:
Yeah, it went off and on. And there were a few other arrests, but some of the ones that spent time in jail for that picket line went back to jail at a later date for the same thing.
Feingold:
The juveniles were all stopped though from picketing, weren't they? Because they were put on probation?
Bell:
Right. Yeah. They took the juveniles and they put them on probation for five or six years until they were 21 and things like that. So they just about stopped them completely.
Feingold:
Yeah. And about how long did the picketing last? I know it was still going on in December and then into the spring, but faded out then.
Bell:
Yeah, around about the spring.
Spears:
Yeah, some of the kids left to go to work from the summertime. That's when it stopped, some of it.
Feingold:
What kind of planning went into the demonstrations and the picketing?
Bell:
There was quite a bit of deep planning into the program, such as non-violent clinics, where we took the people that were going to be involved in the operation and taught them the rudiments of non-violence, what to do if attacked, how to take falls and licks, how to make the correct approaches to the store and exits, and the right distances to march. All these were part of the clinic.
Feingold:
Yeah. And before kids went out on the line, wasn't everyone given telephone numbers or things like that of the lawyers?
Bell:
Yeah. Everyone was given telephone numbers of lawyers that said that they would help in the case of arrest or any legal advice was needed. And we had observers for every two picketers, and they had the telephone number of the FBI and doctors.
Feingold:
Yeah. And they would come back and make reports after each picketing.
Bell:
Yeah. Right.
Feingold:
Yeah. One of the bigger demonstrations, I guess around here, at least one of the ones that led to arrest, was the business with the library. And well, first of all, you were fired from the library, weren't you?
Spears:
Yes, I was.
Feingold:
Yeah. Well, why were you fired?
Spears:
Well, as I told you, I was one of the letter signers, and I was subpoenaed to court several times. And really, we didn't know we didn't really have to go, so we went on. So on December the 15th, I think, or something like that, I received a letter saying that I had been fired from the library because of excessive absence from work. So the library was really segregated because they had a blue bookmobile for the Negroes and a red bookmobile for the white. And the library cards even had a distinction about them because you stamp Negro on the yellow cards for the Negro, but the white just had bookmobile two on there, book mobile one.
Feingold:
What was your job?
Spears:
Oh, I was library assistant on the Negro bookmobile. I checked out books and I was in charge of the bookmobile.
Feingold:
And could Negroes go into the library building?
Spears:
No, they couldn't.
Feingold:
So if a Negro wanted to borrow a book, he could either get it from the bookmobile? That was the only way he could get it?
Spears:
That was the only way. Request it from me, and if I didn't have it, if they had it in the library, they'd even check it out through the library, through me and through the other bookmobile.
Feingold:
Yeah. Well, what happened with the demonstration now?
Spears:
Well, on March 7th, Henry Brown and four other young men from West Feliciana Parish decided to go try and borrow a book from the library up town. And they asked for the book The Story of the Negro. And I wasn't there, but I was told that Mrs. Perkins and Mrs. Reed was on duty. And when Henry asked for the book, she said that she didn't have the book, that she would send it to the state library and get it and mail it to him. But they still insisted that they wanted to browse around in the library. So she asked them to leave, and they didn't leave at the time until she called the sheriff. And they arrested him for disturbing the peace. And they had to go to court several times.
Feingold:
Yeah. And I should just add that I was also arrested at the same time as a material witness for the state. And at two of those trials, they put me on the stand and they asked me a lot of questions about were these boys members of CORE, and when did we have the meetings, the plan that library sit in, and where had those meetings been, and who was there? They were trying to make it look as though I had planned the whole thing. And I refused to answer most of the questions or said I didn't remember or I didn't know, and the boys went to the library because they wanted to borrow a book and that they were all very mad that they hadn't been allowed to use the library building.Oh, I remember a couple of days, I guess the day after the boys were arrested at the library, I was at home at Mama Joe's. And the district attorney and the sheriff came to pay a visit and they started asking me all those same kinds of questions. And I thought that that was a highly illegal procedure because they were questioning me on the front porch of my home. And, of course, I had no counsel or anything. And I kept saying I refused to answer because I didn't have any counsel present.
And finally, they said, "Well, look, who's your counsel?" I told them and they said, "Will you go inside and call him up?" And I did that and the lawyer said I should go right on saying what I had been saying. So finally, they stopped and went away. And then two days later, there was a subpoena out for my arrest as a material witness. So we all ended up spending those days in jail.
Now, could you just tell about what finally happened to the library itself? Was it ever integrated?
Spears:
No, it wasn't ever integrated, but they closed the library down. Now, really, we won in one way because the white people can't go in the library either. They have to be served just by bookmobile and through request, because no one goes in the library, but the employees.
Feingold:
Yeah. Yeah, and meantime, the five boys sued the state for false arrest or something like that in a case called Brown versus Louisiana, and that case worked its way up to the Supreme Court. And just this spring, the case was decided in favor of us, and their convictions were reversed. It was a very important case. So I guess the library really made Clinton famous.
Spears:
Well, since then, Mrs. Perkins, the lady that was head librarian there, resigned and went back to Chicago to live.
Bell:
Yeah, I've heard from a very reliable source lately that next coming season, I don't know what they mean by season or what date, but the next time the library opens up will be integrated.
Feingold:
That's good to hear.
Spears:
I hadn't heard that.
Feingold:
Now, let's talk a little bit about the federal registrars coming in. First of all, when did they come in? Last August?
Spears:
Yes, ma'am.
Feingold:
At the end of August 1965?
Spears:
I think so. Yeah.
Feingold:
And they came in just before I left. Could one of you describe the kind of reaction that that produced in the community and the way people turned out?
Bell:
Yeah, the Negroes felt that it was the end of the road, they started describing. It was all sort of a jubilant type type attitude all the Negroes had taken, and the whites felt as if it was the federal government intruding over the state and dominating it, and they felt that it was quite illegal, and they said it was unconstitutional. But the federal registrars took up residence in Clinton and opened their office up, and the applications weren't any more long and drawn out where you'd have to be a history student or a grad student to pass the exam.
Feingold:
Yeah. And as I remember, people really crowded into the office, and there were lines stretching up the street of people waiting to get into the office.
Bell:
Yeah, right. I'd say on average, it was about a 120-something, 130-something a day. Sometimes it evened out at that.
Feingold:
And this was in the heat of the summer, and people standing out there waiting to get registered.
Bell:
There was also the need for transportation then because a lot of the rural folks didn't have transportation. Their husbands would be working, would be working during the day and they had no mode of transportation. So the community organized and set up carpools where they would go and pick up different people from different areas and bring them to register and then take them back home.
Feingold:
About how many people got registered?
Bell:
About 1500 added on to the 80-something already registered by the parish register already.
Feingold:
Okay. Well, I think we can thank the three of us very much.Copyright © Mimi Feingold Real, James Bell, & Laura M. Spears. 1967
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